(;GM[1]FF[4]CA[UTF-8]AP[CGoban:3]ST[2]
RU[Japanese]SZ[19]KM[6.50]TM[3600]OT[5x40 byo-yomi]
PW[Zen19S]PB[fj]BR[6d]DT[2015-10-17]PC[The KGS Go Server at http://www.gokgs.com/]C[Zen19S [-\]: GTP Engine for Zen19S (white): Zen version 10.4d13
fj [6d\]: have a good game^^
]RE[B+Resign]
;B[pd]BL[3574.745]C[gghideki [?\]: gg
]
;W[dp]WL[3572.103]
;B[pp]BL[3563.875]C[skyblue [2d?\]: Is white 7D?
Warfreak2 [-\]: 100 PRINT "HELLO KGS"
Warfreak2 [-\]: 110 GOTO 100
]
;W[dd]WL[3547.647]C[kmr [1d\]: most boring opening ever.....
]
;B[cf]BL[3531.617]C[skyblue [2d?\]: nothing is forever new......
]
;W[dj]WL[3515.88]C[skyblue [2d?\]: Best thing need not to change is about definitely in go 
Crusoe [3k\]: f17
skyblue [2d?\]: I am alway doubt when people use this far sandwitch to me
Blitzbold [4d?\]: warfreak: you forgot "RUN"
]
;B[fc]BL[3457.95]C[Warfreak2 [-\]: is your name Mark du Chain?
skyblue [2d?\]: f17 looks not very good as w seems please with hurt the c14 from 3 space far place
Warfreak2 [-\]: RUN DMC
Crusoe [3k\]: but my guess f17 was correct :)
]
;W[ee]WL[3482.658]C[skyblue [2d?\]: no
snowmen [2d\]: hu, es geht los
skyblue [2d?\]: it is just because black played it 
skyblue [2d?\]: oh
skyblue [2d?\]: maybe 
]
;B[cc]BL[3420.003]
;W[cd]WL[3482.019]C[skyblue [2d?\]: d14 d13 e14 c16 ......
]
;B[dc]BL[3416.796]C[skyblue [2d?\]: Zen refuse and play e15
]
;W[gd]WL[3457.683]
;B[ed]BL[3407.816]C[Javaness [2d\]: classic
skyblue [2d?\]: pro always says c14 have some energy left .....
skyblue [2d?\]: I wanna know how to use them 
]
;W[fd]WL[3431.623]
;B[ec]BL[3404.581]
;W[de]WL[3430.918]C[snowmen [2d\]: Ich hab nen Geheimtipp gegen Zen. bei 4-4 sofort auf 33-Invadieren, Zen spielt das normale 33-Joseki falsch
Crusoe [3k\]: b16
kmr [1d\]: this looks not so good for black
skyblue [2d?\]: I doubt
skyblue [2d?\]: As pro always say c14 must have some energy left 
rsun [-\]: zen is the only entity still playing takemiya style go
]
;B[bd]BL[3339.23]C[Ahamay [?\]: go humanity!
skyblue [2d?\]: Hey rsun why you deranked?
]
;W[be]WL[3411.147]
;B[bc]BL[3334.047]C[rsun [-\]: misunderstanding
rsun [-\]: the admins are discussing my case
skyblue [2d?\]: I don't quite like b16 ......
rsun [-\]: b16 is joseki
]
;W[dg]WL[3378.321]C[skyblue [2d?\]: what......
]
;B[jp]BL[3316.529]C[rsun [-\]: b can be satisfied with this opening
Javaness [2d\]: D13 always feels too big to me
]
;W[qj]WL[3349.732]C[Warfreak2 [-\]: i got deranked for being too cool
miao [6d\]: f3
skyblue [2d?\]: what have you done to angry the powerful admins? 
longshanks [2d?\]: i got 2d by not playing.
longshanks [2d?\]: how's that!
rsun [-\]: f3 good
K5 [5k?\]: you are 2d? not 2d
rsun [-\]: f3 d6 r8 
skyblue [2d?\]: Zen hate the moves not look wild 
]
;B[ql]BL[3240.367]C[longshanks [2d?\]: K5. but this ? rank by NOT playing
miao [6d\]: h3
rsun [-\]: why b didn't exchange f3 d6?
]
;W[qf]WL[3323.528]C[miao [6d\]: he wants q8 also
Warfreak2 [-\]: zen is my favourite mechanical turk
miao [6d\]: and usually r8 is sente
rsun [-\]: q8?
K5 [5k?\]: I got promoted from 1d? to 7d? without playing a game
]
;B[qh]BL[3200.994]C[awesome [3k\]: this looks great, but what exactly is this event, since it was advertised?
]
;W[of]WL[3299.002]C[rsun [-\]: o17
gogonuts [3d\]: hard choice
rsun [-\]: same event as last year?
skyblue [2d?\]: Zen already using brute power to conquer the donkey 
awesome [3k\]: same event as every year
GoldenBear [1d\]: This event: codecentric go challenge 2015
GoldenBear [1d\]: see go.codecentric.de
gogonuts [3d\]: high or low?
skyblue [2d?\]: Round 1 , Ready Fight !
awesome [3k\]: thank you golden
rsun [-\]: I'd prefer low
gogonuts [3d\]: my feeling is somehow high here
rsun [-\]: I guess top side not that interesting so high is possible too
mohel [-\]: is R12 really a good idea? :/
rsun [-\]: r12 is sacrifice
gogonuts [3d\]: r12 is a standard option
skyblue [2d?\]: I believe play go without emotion could lead you to the aspect of playing every moves fairly as Go Seigen suggested
awesome [3k\]: as far as I understand you get points around w by sacrificing r12
skyblue [2d?\]: So God of Go would be Bots not human 
rsun [-\]: yes awesome
]
;B[nc]BL[3002.142]
;W[pi]WL[3274.237]C[skyblue [2d?\]: play every fair moves without emotion lead you to the aspect of Medieval 
gogonuts [3d\]: fj also had a hard time deciding
]
;B[qe]BL[2988.459]C[rsun [-\]: b f3 now
mohel [-\]: w is so thick now
rsun [-\]: f3 d6 f5 possible
]
;W[rf]WL[3253.129]C[snowmen [2d\]: Zen is very good at global intuition, but ver bad at reading in local fights
Crusoe [3k\]: f3
Warfreak2 [-\]: zen is good at global domination
flobby [-\]: that can't be good rsun
flobby [-\]: looks like something a kyu like me would play
]
;B[fq]BL[2963.62]C[skyblue [2d?\]: if bots make no mistake, they should give the 9p pro 4 stones 
rsun [-\]: then you're good
gogonuts [3d\]: i disagree _ best bot tactically
]
;W[fp]WL[3219.179]C[skyblue [2d?\]: this game would be very long 
snowmen [2d\]: Against Zen You should play c3, not f3
gogonuts [3d\]: i smelled f4
mohel [-\]: Zen loves moyos
skyblue [2d?\]: lol snowmen 
rsun [-\]: f4 rare in even games
]
;B[gp]BL[2925.995]C[rsun [-\]: but zen and dom like it
snowmen [2d\]: After c3 Zen makes joseki mistake
skyblue [2d?\]: who is dom?
kmr [1d\]: comparing to average human player, strongest point of bots is imho time managemant :)
flobby [-\]: f4 or e3 almost guaranteed on flyordie
]
;W[fo]WL[3194.274]
;B[eq]BL[2909.186]
;W[dq]WL[3193.041]C[gogonuts [3d\]: snow thats a poor reason to play a poor move
skyblue [2d?\]: how f4 is bad 
rsun [-\]: it's not bad, just settles position too quickly
Ahamay [?\]: not sure how much I like black R12 - it's a fighting move, so I wouldn't play it when white has influence like here
rsun [-\]: usually it's good if you want to simplify asap
snowmen [2d\]: You have to know Your opponent to trick him
gogonuts [3d\]: annoying cut at g3
rsun [-\]: h4 honte
kmr [1d\]: maybe top pros now are 2 stones behind "ideal go plaer" (or God).Dosaku would do it on 2 stones ;)
kmr [1d\]: lol i meant top pros 4 stones typo
skyblue [2d?\]: kmr 
skyblue [2d?\]: how much God could give you? 
maproomad [-\]: that does sound more likely
K5 [5k?\]: yeah
gogonuts [3d\]: h4 may be honte, but i expect c8 :)
K5 [5k?\]: H4 has note feel
K5 [5k?\]: ^honte
Ahamay [?\]: honte spielt wer gewinnt :p
Fabbo [5k\]: Why C8? why not C6
gogonuts [3d\]: lol
kmr [1d\]: hmm, about 13, +/-2
]
;B[ph]BL[2745.251]C[kmr [1d\]: my judgement isnt very good :)
skyblue [2d?\]: Both of you wrong 
gogonuts [3d\]: nichts ist erfolgreicher als der erfolg
darkronin [1k?\]: Surprise attack!
]
;W[oh]WL[3169.314]
;B[oi]BL[2741.624]C[gogonuts [3d\]: not good imo
rsun [-\]: b wants to make some ladder?
gogonuts [3d\]: w gets ponnuki
]
;W[oj]WL[3150.357]
;B[og]BL[2738.337]
;W[ni]WL[3149.649]
;B[nh]BL[2736.544]C[gogonuts [3d\]: wrong time to cash in imo
rsun [-\]: r8 very thin now
Greenfuse [2k\]: bit early for ko? even against a bot
]
;W[on]WL[3122.83]C[awesome [3k\]: maybe b plan is to ko early and often
lktm [5k\]: who's winning?
lktm [5k\]: :D
snowmen [2d\]: strong idea, playing ko is always good ageist ZEN
Fredda [6d?\]: p6 :o
gogonuts [3d\]: o12 makes it war instead of cash:)
ofbusy [-\]: p6 very surprising ..
rsun [-\]: b wants to play a 3rd game so he has to lose this one
Xylol [4k\]: on gogameguru is a review of their last game
Fredda [6d?\]: b lost the first one didn't he?
Greenfuse [2k\]: funny rsun
rsun [-\]: orly
kmr [1d\]: isnt this first game?
gogonuts [3d\]: yupp 1:0 zen
Xylol [4k\]: second.
skyblue [2d?\]: rsun is always funny 
maproomad [-\]: This is the second game of five.  Zen won the first
Hellblom [4k\]: best of three?
rsun [-\]: thx for clarification
GoldenBear [1d\]: best of five.
GoldenBear [1d\]: see go.codecentric.de
]
;B[qo]BL[2609.488]C[snowmen [2d\]: Last weekend Zen had a bug in jose
maproomad [-\]: http://hp.vector.co.jp/authors/VA012620/cgf2015/cgf2015.html may be a web page about the match, it's hard to tell
]
;W[pe]WL[3096.827]C[GoldenBear [1d\]: the official match page is go.codecentric.de
flobby [-\]: san jose?
Ahamay [?\]: imo both P6 and R5 were mistakes
GoldenBear [1d\]: its in english
Ahamay [?\]: ko would be bigger
GoldenBear [1d\]: codecentric is sponsor
skyblue [2d?\]: what is going on 
rsun [-\]: w has immense influence
maproomad [-\]: thanks for the link
gogonuts [3d\]: you mean fj should have p11?
rsun [-\]: w can sacrifice side stones any time
atman [?\]: what's wrong about R5?
snowmen [2d\]: jose = endgame, not califonian city
Ahamay [?\]: yes @ gogo
flobby [-\]: pulling q12 out didn't seem all that good
mohel [-\]: yose
rsun [-\]: yose, not jose ;)
klausP [?\]: Fj trying to use Ko weaknes?
skyblue [2d?\]: why nose? 
Xylol [4k\]: was f3 the right direction?
rsun [-\]: even the germans don't spell it as jose ;)
gogonuts [3d\]: fj got mad at f4
skyblue [2d?\]: nose 
Ahamay [?\]: Q12 is kind of joseki - but a complicated one including this ko, I don't know how it's done correctly ^^''
Ahamay [?\]: Q15 looks strong to me though
rsun [-\]: q12 means end of fuseki
skyblue [2d?\]: this is going to be very long but it looks black have no confident as take time to think in so much turns show he don't have a plan 
flobby [-\]: is w even behind on territory
rsun [-\]: w has no territory yet
flobby [-\]: left side
rsun [-\]: but you can assume 30
skyblue [2d?\]: bots used to kill and make territory 
rsun [-\]: b c8 can erase left side, although he won't do it now
skyblue [2d?\]: If there is any creatures love fightings in go than female pro, they must be Bots 
rsun [-\]: and b14 open too
Xylol [4k\]: rsun how strong are you if playing humans only?
K5 [5k?\]: P15?
flobby [-\]: isn't rsun 4d
skyblue [2d?\]: 3d 
rsun [-\]: maybe 3d
Xylol [4k\]: ok thx
skyblue [2d?\]: I am an insect inside rsun 
Blitzbold [4d?\]: u are just high
darkronin [1k?\]: What is fj thinking?
skyblue [2d?\]: 3d in KGS is still very strong 
flobby [-\]: wow and here i thought rsun was 4d this whole time. I'm not listening to his comments anymore >=(
skyblue [2d?\]: It is like 3d is stronger than 89% of people in KGS
rsun [-\]: that's ok, I think nobody listens to nobody on kgs
gogonuts [3d\]: benjamin, do you think p6/r5 was good for w?
mohel [-\]: http://senseis.xmp.net/?KGSRankHistogram
flobby [-\]: he should at least listen to himself
darkronin [1k?\]: O14 or P15 appropriate here?
]
;B[oi]BL[2215.627]C[darkronin [1k?\]: Neither, cool
awesome [3k\]: so the average really is about 2k
flobby [-\]: or else he'd have some self esteem issues
]
;W[od]WL[3063.462]C[flobby [-\]: but if he named himself nobody i guess he already does
mohel [-\]: That's not the average, that's the mode.
]
;B[pc]BL[2190.687]C[rsun [-\]: zen's winrate is now 64%
kmr [1d\]: how you know that?
gogonuts [3d\]: joke or local bot?
rsun [-\]: hideki, what's the wr now?
mohel [-\]: Mean 6k, median 5k.
]
;W[nf]WL[3030.453]C[gogonuts [3d\]: joke ...
rsun [-\]: neither ;)
gogonuts [3d\]: intuition, ok :)
Ahamay [?\]: gogo: hm p6/r5 looks like a plus for black
Ahamay [?\]: but still the ko seemed more urgent
]
;B[oh]BL[2140.297]C[rsun [-\]: next 20 moves will be dame
darkronin [1k?\]: W screwed up?
Blitzbold [4d?\]: yes - but if w wins ko p6 might look good
]
;W[mi]WL[3005.489]C[mohel [-\]: remains to be seen
Ahamay [?\]: p17/o18 looks very severe
awesome [3k\]: I don't like this b shape
rsun [-\]: zen will get a wall from this
Ahamay [?\]: so I actually like white :p
]
;B[nj]BL[2111.883]C[lktm [5k\]: can this black group survive?
gogonuts [3d\]: o14 surprised me, but this is strangely hard on b
skyblue [2d?\]: could this cut severe?
]
;W[ok]WL[2979.998]C[flobby [-\]: it can definitely survive if that was all b needed to do
rsun [-\]: Move 39 rsun [-\]: b wants to make some ladder?
mohel [-\]: Very zenlike.
Ahamay [?\]: I think black should have played P15 before catpuring the ko
skyblue [2d?\]: o14 looks beautiful 
flobby [-\]: but the question is can it survive while not giving w too much profit
gogonuts [3d\]: no, because of p6 :)
]
;B[mh]BL[2077.871]C[awesome [3k\]: and the answer is no
mohel [-\]: b ends up with some questionable shape
]
;W[li]WL[2955.024]C[lktm [5k\]: whenever i try to make those groups survive the opponent makes 60 points in the center and my group lives with 2 points 
rsun [-\]: this is the magic sword shape
darkronin [1k?\]: Group looks weak
snowman [-\]: not good for black
skyblue [2d?\]: Groups looks weak before the game is counted usually
snowmen [2d\]: Zen win rate: 58%
]
;B[lh]BL[2036.045]C[mohel [-\]: b doesn't even have eyeshape
rsun [-\]: should be in the 60s now
skyblue [2d?\]: on fj is higher than 58 
Crusoe [3k\]: pushing from behind..
mohel [-\]: let alone somewhere to run to
GoldenBear [1d\]:  snowmen: Do you have a bot that gives you the ratings?
skyblue [2d?\]: because it don't need to give 6 stones
]
;W[ki]WL[2929.384]
;B[lf]BL[2018.724]C[darkronin [1k?\]: I'm at a loss. m14 now?
snowman [-\]: have we got a WR estimator in KGS recently?
rsun [-\]: 6 stones live easily
skyblue [2d?\]: I want a bot that gives me wage 
gogonuts [3d\]: happens so often - you only want a lottle aji, but the bot drags you into an endless problem
]
;W[oc]WL[2894.012]
;B[ob]BL[2014.598]
;W[nd]WL[2893.444]C[mohel [-\]: i think they're talking about the monte-carlo simulation winrate
snowmen [2d\]: Zen winrate now 60 %
rsun [-\]: zen played that really fast
lktm [5k\]: how can it simulate all the way to the end?
rsun [-\]: very human like
]
;B[mc]BL[1988.71]C[rsun [-\]: random
gogonuts [3d\]: zen is ahead, imo
snowman [-\]: zen wants to live :)
skyblue [2d?\]: More long you play go, more bad habbits you reguliar with 
]
;W[le]WL[2866.652]C[awesome [3k\]: iktm, it runs millions of random games to the end for each move
Warfreak2 [-\]: zen is my homeboy
Ahamay [?\]: n17 -> O18
snowmen [2d\]: Zen winrate according to Zen version 9,7
skyblue [2d?\]: 6d means you can't change anymore
Warfreak2 [-\]: not "random" in the idiotbot sense
Warfreak2 [-\]: it plays according to simple rules, more like 20k level
lktm [5k\]: oh but since you have a powerful computer you can simulate a few million games
darkronin [1k?\]: Thanks, that explains a lot now
awesome [3k\]: yews
Warfreak2 [-\]: and not necessarily to the end - it assumes that if a big group is captured then that's game over
GoldenBear [1d\]: thanks, snowmen. Please continue to supply watermarks :-)
lktm [5k\]: ah right so it saves searching deeply
Warfreak2 [-\]: basically the problem with reading ahead is you either need to read to the end or stop and use positional judgement
gogonuts [3d\]: mc bots put their effort into chosing good moves, not into evaluating the results
]
;B[ke]BL[1885.156]C[mohel [-\]: that's contradictory
]
;W[ld]WL[2856.317]
;B[jh]BL[1877.427]C[awesome [3k\]: this is kgs
lktm [5k\]: yeah how can you know what is a good move without evaluating
nearharvy [-\]: how to play with this bot ?|
lktm [5k\]: :D
]
;W[rd]WL[2828.816]C[gogonuts [3d\]: the dont evaluate positions
Warfreak2 [-\]: the positional judgement used by MC bots is to assume that the simple 20k-level rules are likely to produce the same outcome most of the time
nearharvy [-\]: how to play with this bot and have alots of time'?>
Greenfuse [2k\]: it has a good move database
rsun [-\]: you sample many branches and pick the one with highest winning probability
Warfreak2 [-\]: they do evaluate positions, by playing them out repeatedly
Winnetou [?\]: I like black.
gogonuts [3d\]: but do the full playouts instead
Ahamay [?\]: I don't like any of B's last moves
gogonuts [3d\]: still, they need good move candidate generators
Ahamay [?\]: but S16 looks sa bit strange too
]
;B[ji]BL[1814.549]C[rsun [-\]: s16 better than r16
GoldenBear [1d\]: What are your reservations about black's play, Ahamay?
]
;W[ll]WL[2800.851]C[lktm [5k\]: so they have heurisitics to figure out where to start? or do they just simulate anything in the local area?
Warfreak2 [-\]: there are no probabilities, rsun, unless you stop the optimisation process which tries to select the best moves
]
;B[kj]BL[1804.227]C[awesome [3k\]: usually in zen games the opponent eradicates the 'obvious' moyo and then zen magically creates another which becomes points
rsun [-\]: I meant statistics
gogonuts [3d\]: they dont do local :)
Ahamay [?\]: N17: leaves aji - L15: forces w to fix shape, leaving cut - K12: cuttable
]
;W[kk]WL[2771.661]C[gogonuts [3d\]: always full board playouts
Ahamay [?\]: I like K11, though :)
lktm [5k\]: hm ok
gogonuts [3d\]: thats why theyre great when positions interact
GoldenBear [1d\]: Thanks, Ahamay!
gogonuts [3d\]: and poor when they dont
K5 [5k?\]: I think I would M10 here
lktm [5k\]: i always thought bots weren't good at global stuff
Warfreak2 [-\]: rsun, the point is at some point you stop doing searches of the form ∀∃∀∃∀∃∀∃∀∃...
gogonuts [3d\]: mc bots are different
lktm [5k\]: they didn't have these types of bots before because of lack of computing power?
Warfreak2 [-\]: and start just saying, play this out with 20k-level rules N times, and let p be the number of wins divided by N
snowmen [2d\]: The Zen winrate is already 65 %
gogonuts [3d\]: one reason
rsun [-\]: I knew wr would be in the 60s
gogonuts [3d\]: another reason is that full playouts just seemed silly :)
Schweiger: Zen will take sente to play r18
richilue [5k\]: m17 much bigger
rsun [-\]: o18 aji
Warfreak2 [-\]: there are two modes you're "reading ahead" in, one is estimating probabilities (the positional judgement function) and the other requires rejecting moves that the opponent has refutations of
]
;B[lj]BL[1611.45]C[gogonuts [3d\]: b is having a hard time figuring out how to move against the left
snowman [-\]: such a long thinking time for simple thing
]
;W[mj]WL[2745.931]
;B[mk]BL[1610.379]C[Warfreak2 [-\]: you don't just average over all games you read, because most of them involve your opponent playing a move known to be supoptimal
gogonuts [3d\]: lol, snow
rsun [-\]: sakata eio would c8 make life, and then deal with center group
]
;W[nk]WL[2720.3]
;B[kh]BL[1608.991]
;W[nj]WL[2719.727]
;B[jj]BL[1608.125]C[lktm [5k\]: yeah so it wouldn't continue down branches that involve suboptimal plays from either side
darkronin [1k?\]: How can you say that @rsun?
]
;W[mn]WL[2691.908]C[rsun [-\]: center is dame if b plays there
rsun [-\]: so his only chance is to destroy the left
Crusoe [3k\]: now C8 ?
gogonuts [3d\]: weird w group here
snowman [-\]: C8 and we have a new wr, i think
atman [?\]: L9 now looks like a move that does nothing at all
Ootakamoku [-\]: shouldnt be too difficult to live on the left side
Ahamay [?\]: I think black gained a lot in the center and leads again
]
;B[qb]BL[1535.592]C[awesome [3k\]: I bet this is the losing move!
mohel [-\]: b will have to make life
richilue [5k\]: ??  someone thinks b is behind>
richilue [5k\]: ?
snowman [-\]: R18 is big and _maybe_ necessary
mohel [-\]: creatively
]
;W[np]WL[2657.723]C[rsun [-\]: b must tenuki
gogonuts [3d\]: zen very happy
Crusoe [3k\]: C8 still uber-huge
gogonuts [3d\]: safe mode
rsun [-\]: no move for b here
awesome [3k\]: I guess b had to
darkronin [1k?\]: R16 is playable?
Ootakamoku [-\]: ya, lazy move by w, definately happy
mohel [-\]: left side is humongous still
awesome [3k\]: it's like zen really wants b to play there
Ootakamoku [-\]: b gets small life on the left, w gets yose against every other group on the board as compenstation
gogonuts [3d\]: left is very big, but b b14 makes it smaller
Ahamay [?\]: actually zen might be right
Ahamay [?\]: black comes in at C8, white will attack two groups and have a few points more
kolppp [3d\]: Its winning position against Zen
rsun [-\]: b has nowhere else to play
Ahamay [?\]: after white defends the cut of E4, H3 will be very severe
]
;B[cl]BL[1338.496]C[gogonuts [3d\]: b feels forced :)
snowmen [2d\]: if win rate is 70 %, game is over, 60 % does not mean much, I already have won games against Zen after winrate 60 %
]
;W[dl]WL[2627.879]
;B[dm]BL[1331.641]
;W[el]WL[2627.24]C[maproomad [-\]: I wonder if fj has studied last weekend's games where Rita Pocsai beat Zen
klausP [?\]: d8 suprising for low dan like me
flobby [-\]: who is rita pocsai?
Ootakamoku [-\]: c10?
Warfreak2 [-\]: surely the zen's estimated win-rate you're able to overcome is an increasing function of your strength
mohel [-\]: Woods
maproomad [-\]: Hungarian 5d
mohel [-\]: She drew zen in the end
gogonuts [3d\]: zen was doing very well in those games
rsun [-\]: aka pepe
Warfreak2 [-\]: you may be able to overcome 60% but not 70%, a pro can probably beat 90%
Ahamay [?\]: D8 is normal for killing ^^
gogonuts [3d\]: strange that he lost them
maproomad [-\]: Zen was 0ver 80% in both games
snowmen [2d\]: Zen had core dump last weekend
Ahamay [?\]: because D8 defends against both B10/C10 and E8 at once
rsun [-\]: b9 best for eyeshape
Ahamay [?\]: usually C10 now
]
;B[cj]BL[1222.431]C[rsun [-\]: w will descend after hane
]
;W[ci]WL[2601.741]C[Ahamay [?\]: yes
Ootakamoku [-\]: b could play b9 now
Ahamay [?\]: B9, B11
]
;B[ck]BL[1205.673]C[Ahamay [?\]: ah he prefers the cutting aji
NiceGoAuth [-\]: hmm, were do you get the wr from?
Ahamay [?\]: also possible
rsun [-\]: snow has a copy of zen
]
;W[iq]WL[2569.209]C[NiceGoAuth [-\]: ahh, I see:)
Ahamay [?\]: woah
flobby [-\]: that was not a very zen move
mohel [-\]: i wonder what CS would say
lktm [5k\]: does this work?
Ootakamoku [-\]: zen wants to make it very complicated
]
;B[ip]BL[1179.211]C[nicholas63 [1k\]: yea
rsun [-\]: zen thinks it's better to attack 3 groups than 2
]
;W[hq]WL[2544.601]
;B[gq]BL[1172.264]C[richilue [5k\]: this is not good for w
gogonuts [3d\]: hard against zen in such positions
rsun [-\]: why not?
Warfreak2 [-\]: fj is like avril lavigne, then, oota
Ahamay [?\]: lol
Crusoe [3k\]: fow me it looks like gg (b is happy)
]
;W[kr]WL[2517.606]C[richilue [5k\]: because b e7 is still open
lktm [5k\]: isnt ther something about if you make 6 groups one will die
Ootakamoku [-\]: crusoe, b is probably very scared/nervous right now
lktm [5k\]: b has 6 :D
rsun [-\]: sakata eio made 7 and all of them lived
Warfreak2 [-\]: 2^n groups will live, but 2^n + 1 will die
gogonuts [3d\]: fj has to pour a lot of awesome sauce to win this
snowman [-\]: this is a competition about who has less territory
rsun [-\]: h4 still honte
gogonuts [3d\]: lol rsun
Ootakamoku [-\]: just play k2 directly? for sente?
]
;B[kq]BL[1019.066]C[rsun [-\]: that's a special property of honte; if you don't play it, you'll still have to play it
]
;W[lr]WL[2488.951]C[gogonuts [3d\]: define honte by its annoying properties :)
]
;B[hp]BL[997.995]C[NiceGoAuth [-\]: it was honte for w too:)
K5 [5k?\]: double honte
awesome [3k\]: this kind of sente?
rsun [-\]: w can tenuki
gogonuts [3d\]: god, k5
]
;W[bn]WL[2453.018]C[lktm [5k\]: oooo
]
;B[bi]BL[989.278]C[awesome [3k\]: right, this is not looking good
]
;W[lc]WL[2429.269]C[awesome [3k\]: for fj
akkannbee [1d\]: w need to kill one, and its possible now
gogonuts [3d\]: these positions you just cant get anywhere against the bot
rsun [-\]: one must tenuki like zen to attain zen wisdom
Ootakamoku [-\]: m17 weird
Ootakamoku [-\]: dont understand it
flobby [-\]: are you sure w needs to kill one?
gogonuts [3d\]: i expect fj kadoban next game
lktm [5k\]: is this sente?
mohel [-\]: w prepares to kill the dragon
eleven21: i guess m17 threaten k12 
Ootakamoku [-\]: b d5 for war?
gogonuts [3d\]: w too safe everywhere
richilue [5k\]: with J8 still open  b is fine
Ootakamoku [-\]: j7 looks like a safe move
gogonuts [3d\]: can terrorize b with any timing he pleases
mohel [-\]: b isn't fine... 4 weak groups
]
;B[il]BL[844.524]C[Ootakamoku [-\]: j7 here would be very zen like
skyblue [2d?\]: hey
]
;W[rb]WL[2394.343]C[kolppp [3d\]: B's problem is not living rather making more territory than Zen.
]
;B[lb]BL[834.273]C[atman [?\]: seems the game is slipping out of b's hands
]
;W[kb]WL[2369.333]C[GoldenBear [1d\]: snowmen - what's Zen win rate now?
]
;B[na]BL[831.931]
;W[di]WL[2338.833]C[gogonuts [3d\]: out of his grasp is the official term
Ootakamoku [-\]: snowmens zen is running on slower hardware tho, so might not be an accurate comparison at all times
GoldenBear [1d\]: I assume so :-)
GoldenBear [1d\]: Still, it's a good approximation
gogonuts [3d\]: agree
Ahamay [?\]: w preparing for J6?
atman [?\]: you're right, that's the term I was looking for :-)
gogonuts [3d\]: lol
gogonuts [3d\]: poor fj
]
;B[bh]BL[716.048]C[snowmen [2d\]: Anayway, at the moment I do not trust the winrate, because Zen is not strong in such positions.
]
;W[cm]WL[2315.128]C[awesome [3k\]: big
]
;B[bf]BL[703.273]C[lktm [5k\]: now one group lived
eleven21: even if the winrate is high bots often overlook serious weaknesses
snowmen [2d\]: Zen moyo is gone, but Zen needs moyo to show full strength
awesome [3k\]: too bad b could not save d7
GoldenBear [1d\]: Ahamay: White isn't preparing anything. I suppose the best way to understand the Bot's thinking is to think along the line "what are likely outcomes in many random playouts". Visualize that . that may be closer to the bot's "thinking"
gogonuts [3d\]: very hard for b to get closer than 1.5 
]
;W[qn]WL[2282.027]
;B[rn]BL[696.101]C[Ahamay [?\]: GoldenBear: not sure, even in MCTS there is a main variation
Ahamay [?\]: which could have J6 in it
]
;W[pq]WL[2255.062]C[GoldenBear [1d\]: What does "TS" mean in "MCTS"?
Ahamay [?\]: tree search
]
;B[qq]BL[676.674]C[gogonuts [3d\]: moves will vary more strongly than the win rate
GoldenBear [1d\]: Ah:-) Thanks
]
;W[oq]WL[2230.372]C[Ahamay [?\]: the last white combination didn't make any sense to me
]
;B[qr]BL[655.924]C[gogonuts [3d\]: winning bots dont make sense
Ahamay [?\]: :)
]
;W[po]WL[2205.135]C[Ahamay [?\]: but I don't think white is clearly winning yet
ofbusy [-\]: s7 if b cut at p3 i think
]
;B[qp]BL[633.33]C[Ahamay [?\]: if he manages to gain from the center attack black might have enough
Ahamay [?\]: sry
Ahamay [?\]: if w doesn't manage *
]
;W[je]WL[2175.239]C[snowman [-\]: looks like endgame from now on
klausP [?\]: k15 looks nice
]
;B[kf]BL[568.178]C[longshanks [2d?\]: there are a few large endgame moves for b
Ootakamoku [-\]: how strong is zens endgame (when needed)?
medical [?\]: and now b just needs to create a ko and he wins?
ofbusy [-\]: i would take b, w is short
klausP [?\]: k12 not clearly alive, so it cant be endgame jet
longshanks [2d?\]: endgames are probably easier for bots than midgame
awesome [3k\]: yeah, find a big ko :)
]
;W[ig]WL[2139.628]C[kolppp [3d\]: Yes endgame is a bit dangerous for Zen.
longshanks [2d?\]: is Zen experty system + mote carlo, or just MC ?
MooDoGo [4k\]: b c5?!
snowman [-\]: fj lost the first game because of large endgame
akbnm: strong bot
longshanks [2d?\]: first game was against Crazy Stone
longshanks [2d?\]: erm.. last year sorry
eleven21: bots are very bad at endgame and l&d
longshanks [2d?\]: forgot this was 2nd against Zen.
Pikadonk [1d\]: k2 looks big
snowmen [2d\]: KGS SE: W+50, Zen SE: W +16
Ootakamoku [-\]: we can extrapolate from that, B+10 in reality
awesome [3k\]: how can zen be that wrong about it's own game? 
NiceGoAuth [-\]: NiceGo +17
]
;B[hi]BL[443.717]C[tom26 [9k\]: OK, just arrived - what's happened? :)
NiceGoAuth [-\]: bots are usually bad in own games
snowman [-\]: all zens are not the same
]
;W[gi]WL[2112.641]C[KlausB [?\]: snowman: isn't that in the nature of Zen?
snowman [-\]: K2 or D6, please
mohel [-\]: b's got about 30 pts, w ... too
]
;B[hg]BL[395.567]C[NiceGoAuth [-\]: they play moves which increase own wr, and this makes it more wrong than looking at other games, e.g NiceGo is usually quite close to zen, but muuuuch weaker
BlitzThoth [6k\]: Many Faces of Go 2d predicts w+26
awesome [3k\]: d6 interesting
]
;W[hh]WL[2082.441]C[snowman [-\]: these are fighting about center points...
richilue [5k\]: i think b should be very happy at this point
]
;B[ih]BL[389.423]
;W[gh]WL[2081.819]
;B[if]BL[388.267]C[longshanks [2d?\]: bots usually try to win by 1.5 points. they wont make risky moves once they're ahead and silly ones when they're behind
lktm [5k\]: b everything alive now?
mohel [-\]: gnugo says B + 2.5
]
;W[gg]WL[2046.092]C[awesome [3k\]: lol gnugo
KlausB [?\]: Bloody SE say:s 180.5 for W ...
GoldenBear [1d\]: The next one who mentions the KGS Score Estimator will get a lifelong ban from watching future codecentric go challenge matches ;-)
NiceGoAuth [-\]: gnugo probably right
longshanks [2d?\]: lol
awesome [3k\]: maybe, but still :)
KlausB [?\]: It is funny ...
Jazzman [1d\]: KlausB and KlausP you guys confuse me :)
awesome [3k\]: like snowman and snowmen
]
;B[hf]BL[323.993]C[bluetable [-\]: not enough courage
gogonuts [3d\]: lol Lazzman
Ahamay [?\]: klaustrophibic? ;-)
Crusoe [3k\]: K2 is now big i think
Ahamay [?\]: o*
Jazzman [1d\]: :-)
]
;W[ic]WL[2016.283]C[eleven21: as i remember, there are nice results on tsumego programs and endgame programs. but they aren't incorporated to the bots yet
]
;B[jr]BL[297.618]C[KlausB [?\]: here we go ...
snowman [-\]: ah, finally
mohel [-\]: gutsy
]
;W[lq]WL[1991.698]C[humblelife [-\]: not really. this helps both b groups
snowman [-\]: though D2 might  have been miai
]
;B[kp]BL[287.818]C[akkannbee [1d\]: what is j17?
mohel [-\]: ladder/net breaker
]
;W[hn]WL[1959.898]C[snowman [-\]: J17 is a hope for the mankind :)
lktm [5k\]: j17 what net?
awesome [3k\]: there goes d6
]
;B[ep]BL[251.32]
;W[eo]WL[1959.16]C[snowman [-\]: D2 now, perhaps
]
;B[dr]BL[237.387]
;W[cr]WL[1933.835]C[medical [?\]: k12 already alive?
richilue [5k\]: b wins easily 
humblelife [-\]: k2 seemed a bit bigger than d6. b still has some aji and alternative ways to use it in endgame
Ootakamoku [-\]: k12 is unconditionally alive as far as I can read
]
;B[es]BL[215.71]C[gogonuts [3d\]: snowman, I always lose hope when the bots starts playing useless stuff
snowmen [2d\]: K2 was not played by Zen, becaue he thinks, he is ahead
wurfmaul [2d\]: lktm: I think white k14 k13 h10 k16 j15 h16
]
;W[qm]WL[1909.227]C[humblelife [-\]: ah
]
;B[rm]BL[210.575]C[BSOD [4d\]: goooooooo zen
lktm [5k\]: ohh
]
;W[rk]WL[1876.666]C[lktm [5k\]: thanks wurf 
humblelife [-\]: does zen not try to counter his opponent's win conditionswhen he thinks he is ahead?
Ootakamoku [-\]: w b8 correct endgame move?
Ootakamoku [-\]: b*
gogonuts [3d\]: b prob feels like a one-legged man in an ass-kicking contest
snowman [-\]: this could be a close game
]
;B[rl]BL[137.942]C[snowmen [2d\]: Zen playes the most solid move, not the best move, than he thinks, he is ahead
Ootakamoku [-\]: if its close now, Ill put my money on zen
humblelife [-\]: i see
Ahamay [?\]: I put mine on FJ
gogonuts [3d\]: zen has been cavalier with some of the last moves, but not like against rita
Ahamay [?\]: ^^
]
;W[js]WL[1850.799]
;B[is]BL[129.388]C[akkannbee [1d\]: now,easy game for b.right?
matemato [3k\]: Rita played well
]
;W[ks]WL[1826.417]C[rsun [-\]: zen should try to kill center
rsun [-\]: that's zen style
gogonuts [3d\]: I say zen goes up 2:0
]
;B[hr]BL[101.654]C[snowman [-\]: C1 or G17 for white?
rsun [-\]: h10
]
;W[la]WL[1793.151]C[snowman [-\]: B3 might be honte...
]
;B[mb]BL[96.985]C[GoldenBear [1d\]: snowmen - what does your Zen engine think?
matemato [3k\]: in the first game agains Rita, black b3 did not actually work
Ootakamoku [-\]: k3 or j2 instead of h2 gives 1 fewer ko threats
gogonuts [3d\]: fj is good at the endgame, but byoyomi isnt helping
]
;W[ka]WL[1765.41]C[longshanks [2d?\]: hopefully fj will know all the endgame plays and be able to make them quickly
lktm [5k\]: yeah i thought h2 was unnecessarily fancy
]
;B[ma]BL[89.83]C[Ootakamoku [-\]: gogonuts, well, he doesnt have to enter byomi, he can play ou the game in maintime too
snowman [-\]: too slow for the good of mankind, eh
gogonuts [3d\]: to me the last 15 zen moves like like "I dont know which one, they all win"
Ahamay [?\]: L19 looks to me like he's losing
NiceGoAuth [-\]: now wr for w is going down:) top b group was not 100% alive read:)
longshanks [2d?\]: there are a couple of large sentes left for B
]
;W[im]WL[1731.209]C[snowmen [2d\]: Zen is thinking M3 wins by 72%
Ahamay [?\]: "let's try and kill something"
rsun [-\]: here it comes
longshanks [2d?\]: rsun you were right
rsun [-\]: will b risk it?
rsun [-\]: b h10 simple life
lktm [5k\]: isnt this group alive
lktm [5k\]: lol
rsun [-\]: yes, but b wants to tenuki to get big yose
longshanks [2d?\]: not if b can win without any risky strategy
lktm [5k\]: ah i see
Crusoe [3k\]: can b do sth in the lower left corner?
]
;B[gj]BL[34.423]C[Greenfuse [2k\]: b2
tom26 [9k\]: hard decisions with 1 minute on the clock
skyblue [2d?\]: This game is as long as the great river in China
]
;W[gk]WL[1705.957]C[GoldenBear [1d\]: Thanks, snowmen. The interesting question is: Do these 72% rely on killing the black center group in 72% of the playouts?!?
rsun [-\]: if zen needs to kill to win, then wr should be 28% instead
gogonuts [3d\]: this game is as deep as the darkest ocean
KlausB [?\]: One should assume the B has an idea about the endgame, so time isn't that important.
longshanks [2d?\]: goldenbear: you'd need to see the rollouts. does zen keep logs?
]
;B[hj]BL[40]OB[5]C[GoldenBear [1d\]: Just for the records: FJ is in Byoyomi now.
klausP [?\]: but its medium pace
]
;W[bl]WL[1677.768]C[lktm [5k\]: isn't it kinda poor time management by zen then?
gogonuts [3d\]: lol, klaus
gogonuts [3d\]: ah, ok 40 secs you meant
]
;B[br]BL[40]OB[5]C[klausP [?\]: lol
KlausB [?\]: gogog: which Klaus?
gogonuts [3d\]: +true thats not too bad
eleven21: b8 isn't sente. b got chance?
rsun [-\]: what do you do when you finish an exam early? you hand it in and leave, you don't sit there until time's up
skyblue [2d?\]: oh
skyblue [2d?\]: a rsun move
Ootakamoku [-\]: b2 is very big
skyblue [2d?\]: typical rsun suji 
]
;W[cq]WL[1653.367]C[snowman [-\]: this must be a black win
]
;B[cs]BL[40]OB[5]C[skyblue [2d?\]: no
skyblue [2d?\]: snow wins 
rsun [-\]: I play 33 more often than 22
]
;W[cg]WL[1621.963]C[Ootakamoku [-\]: j7 and c13 are both moves that look slightly worrying
Ootakamoku [-\]: for zen that is
]
;B[bg]BL[40]OB[5]
;W[ce]WL[1597.305]C[rsun [-\]: hideki, when will you let us play zen again?
Ootakamoku [-\]: or maybe zen just playing best yose with c13..
]
;B[ae]BL[40]OB[5]C[Ahamay [?\]: mankind can celebrate tonight
kolppp [3d\]: Its nice achievment from Zen to make a game against FJ.
gogonuts [3d\]: zens game tightening up again
]
;W[gc]WL[1572.864]C[rsun [-\]: b3 too happy
gogonuts [3d\]: fj has gotten too close :-)
]
;B[bq]BL[40]OB[5]C[lktm [5k\]: ooo
rsun [-\]: b3 is elation
GoldenBear [1d\]: Mankind the go players or mankind the go bots programmers?
K5 [5k?\]: programmers are human?
]
;W[bp]WL[1547.218]C[lktm [5k\]: q2 when?
Ahamay [?\]: let me decide after this sequence :D
snowman [-\]: those of us who are left :)
K5 [5k?\]: Must say , I never felt particularly human when go programming...
Fabbo [5k\]: no programmers are organisms which turn coffee and pizza into software
awesome [3k\]: w j9?
longshanks [2d?\]: GoldenBear. I'd like to see a match against Lee Sedol before I answer that question ;-)
]
;B[aq]BL[40]OB[5]C[Eilinen [-\]: Hm?
klausP [?\]: a3 seems to small
gogonuts [3d\]: that w shape looks terrible - lucky that bots are blind
rsun [-\]: a3 big, d5 aji
Ahamay [?\]: a3 sente ^^
snowman [-\]: threatens a ripoff
He [3d?\]: A3 necessary
myushkin [4k\]: a3 gives snapback
klausP [?\]: realy?
]
;W[em]WL[1512.791]C[Eilinen [-\]: What was wrong with c6 b7 d5 b5 ?
klausP [?\]: ah
klausP [?\]: thx
myushkin [4k\]: D5 c4 c6
gogonuts [3d\]: b directly only looked great
gogonuts [3d\]: needed a3
gogonuts [3d\]: and a3 is profitable
]
;B[gf]BL[40]OB[5]C[gogonuts [3d\]: so good b play here
ofbusy [-\]: b is ahead
richilue [5k\]: f10 or k17 or H14 or....  b can take his p;ick
snowman [-\]: yeah, black saved the game
snowmen [2d\]: Obviously Zen thinks, black center is not alive
rsun [-\]: when a human gets to play a move like b3, the wr jumps up by 10%
Fabbo [5k\]: why is that bigger than G18
]
;W[fb]WL[1482.421]C[theolddan [2d\]: it isnt
]
;B[eb]BL[40]OB[5]C[gogonuts [3d\]: w still ahead
gogonuts [3d\]: bots make points in strange places
NiceGoAuth [-\]: can not beleave, zen thinks center not alive, 100% alive here
Grit [-\]: why did you remove the rank rsun?
]
;W[jf]WL[1447.473]C[bluetable [-\]: SE just knows better
ofbusy [-\]: i dont see how you get to this gogo, b seems at least 5 points ahead imo
lktm [5k\]: how do you know what zen thinks 
lktm [5k\]: :D
rsun [-\]: BD thinks I'm rank cheater
mohel [-\]: he's got this neuronal implant
snowmen [2d\]: Comparing Zen SE with Zen winrate
]
;B[jd]BL[40]OB[5]C[Grit [-\]: BD?
awesome [3k\]: soon zen will discover that b is alive and then make weird moves
rsun [-\]: bigdoug
]
;W[ie]WL[1437.988]C[mohel [-\]: and now you see what net j17 prevents
lktm [5k\]: yes
gogonuts [3d\]: whats wrong with playing bots?
akbnm: ah centor b danger
Grit [-\]: why would he think that ?
]
;B[ff]BL[40]OB[5]C[klausP [?\]: wow
snowman [-\]: fingers crossed...
He [3d?\]: F14 smart
mohel [-\]: it's sente
]
;W[eg]WL[1405.225]C[rsun [-\]: he said he would discuss my case with other admins
]
;B[fj]BL[40]OB[5]C[sprouts [1d\]: Lolwut
Crusoe [3k\]: nice b sente moves
humblelife [-\]: ouch
Grit [-\]: weird things you're telling me
awesome [3k\]: b nice
rsun [-\]: zen losing many points in yose
skyblue [2d?\]: lol poor rsun 
sprouts [1d\]: Because you play bots?
]
;W[ej]WL[1379.632]C[gogonuts [3d\]: sounds like somebody has too much time on his hands
He [3d?\]: F15 threat later
]
;B[fi]BL[40]OB[5]C[awesome [3k\]: that's gonna help a lot I guess
rsun [-\]: no complaints :)
tom26 [9k\]: does K13 live for black?
]
;W[fh]WL[1352.256]C[mohel [-\]: gnugo: B+12.5
flobby [-\]: yes tom
Ahamay [?\]: imo B+3, but we'll see
]
;B[jg]BL[40]OB[5]C[NiceGoAuth [-\]: nichgo b+ now
klausP [?\]: k16 still seems to be a los
Grit [-\]: zen will be a ranked bot in the future, so it does kinda concern the game
]
;W[kd]WL[1327.029]C[skyblue [2d?\]: nicegooo
Fabbo [5k\]: g18
]
;B[pm]BL[40]OB[5]
;W[jl]WL[1293.796]C[Crusoe [3k\]: why K8?
akbnm: because bot
NiceGoAuth [-\]: some center missread I think
]
;B[hl]BL[40]OB[5]C[KlausB [?\]: Desparation ...?
tom26 [9k\]: crazyness
K5 [5k?\]: big move
akbnm: for next j9 sente big?
]
;W[hk]WL[1269.237]C[skyblue [2d?\]: big move is smaller than urgent move
]
;B[ik]BL[40]OB[5]C[BlitzThoth [6k\]: MFGO also said k8 was the only move - no alternatives offered.
rsun [-\]: snowman what's the wr now?
snowman [-\]: men
gogonuts [3d\]: this bahavior does look worrying for zen
]
;W[pn]WL[1234.65]C[skyblue [2d?\]: Bots don't care about behaviour 
rsun [-\]: lol I was wondering why you kept switching your rank
gogonuts [3d\]: zen can't hold onto games anymore?
gogonuts [3d\]: its becoming a series
snowman [-\]: computer lost, the humans will take over the world
]
;B[lp]BL[40]OB[5]C[theolddan [2d\]: depends on programmer mood; he could parse comments
awesome [3k\]: lol
]
;W[bk]WL[1204.811]C[skyblue [2d?\]: lol 
skyblue [2d?\]: this does look bots in panic mode
tom26 [9k\]: That O1 Monkey jump looks tempting
snowmen [2d\]: Surpringly winrate still 65 %  for Zen
]
;B[bj]BL[40]OB[5]C[Pikadonk [1d\]: o2 looks better
mohel [-\]: B9 is pretty big
Fabbo [5k\]: Y u no G18
klausP [?\]: n3?
humblelife [-\]: o1 unlikely right now
theolddan [2d\]: bot has fj parameter settings now
rsun [-\]: why can't zen just maintain its wr from middle game
humblelife [-\]: b is probing if he can p7 or so
]
;W[pl]WL[1177.971]C[klausP [?\]: urg
klausP [?\]: that was big
Crusoe [3k\]: n3 !?
Xylol [4k\]: b center dead?
lktm [5k\]: no
awesome [3k\]: alive
klausP [?\]: Q9 was sente for b
Fabbo [5k\]: no, center is alive
lktm [5k\]: course not :D
eleven21: perhaps zen's understanding is similar to se
]
;B[he]BL[40]OB[5]C[bitzi [-\]: as dead as a group with 2 eyes
Xylol [4k\]: :-)
Xylol [4k\]: ko
klytu [?\]: what happened to w's lower left corner?? i just like left to make and sandwich and ...
]
;W[id]WL[1152.778]C[pperez333 [?\]: i see one eye on l13 but the other one?
Fabbo [5k\]: can B play B5?
lktm [5k\]: J11
Ahamay [?\]: B5 is nice btw
Ahamay [?\]: ^^
Xylol [4k\]: j10 
]
;B[ap]BL[40]OB[5]C[tom26 [9k\]: Eyes at L13 and J11 methings
Ahamay [?\]: too bad he needed the time to think about O2
]
;W[ao]WL[1119.47]C[Ahamay [?\]: A4 loses quite a bit
pperez333 [?\]: but the one on j11 does not depend on white not playing j10?
bitzi [-\]: j10 minus points
lktm [5k\]: j10 then k9
richilue [5k\]: c5
atman [?\]: how is the winrate calculated? Is the bot ruling out that it's opponent makes mistakes, or is it assuming that there is a certain chance that bad moves occur?
Fabbo [5k\]: N3 now or G18?
]
;B[mq]BL[40]OB[5]C[awesome [3k\]: j10 was the answer to the question where is the other eye...
aaardvark [?\]: atman I think it does playouts and sees what % it wins
juando [9k\]: k9 and j10 are miai pperez333
]
;W[mr]WL[1094.27]C[Ahamay [?\]: N3 looks bad too
]
;B[mp]BL[40]OB[5]C[Ahamay [?\]: argh it's getting close again...
rsun [-\]: n3 great
]
;W[nq]WL[1069.967]C[atman [?\]: yes, this is my understanding too, I'm just asking if those playouts are weighed by the bot
awesome [3k\]: somehow I can't count this game
Thumb [3d\]: some awe
Xylol [4k\]: dont count to much in the middle
tom26 [9k\]: does O1 monkey jump work anymore?
Pugovka [?\]: n3 is bad actually.. r17 is very big sente
Crusoe [3k\]: its pretty close (if played out by me)
]
;B[pr]BL[40]OB[5]C[mohel [-\]: yes
Ahamay [?\]: N3 -> O2 better
bitzi [-\]: just count the safe points, simple
klausP [?\]: s17 seems better than r17
Pikadonk [1d\]: m9 or r16
Xylol [4k\]: g18
Winnetou [?\]: Does g6 work?
snowman [-\]: this should be sente
]
;W[or]WL[1035.204]C[fh63 [2k\]: why didn't play black q9 before white played q8?
Pugovka [?\]: @Klaus, r17 for w, s17 for b
wurfmaul [2d\]: I think o1 still "worked", but only in gote
klausP [?\]: :)
flobby [-\]: g6 doesn't give any points winnne
]
;B[lk]BL[40]OB[5]C[Crusoe [3k\]: m9 nice
Fabbo [5k\]: what about R9?
]
;W[ml]WL[1010.006]
;B[qd]BL[40]OB[5]C[Crusoe [3k\]: also nice
]
;W[re]WL[981.123]C[myushkin [4k\]: q9?
]
;B[ra]BL[40]OB[5]
;W[rc]WL[978.799]C[fh63 [2k\]: threatening q10
]
;B[pk]BL[40]OB[5]C[tom26 [9k\]: q9 seems reasonable
Xylol [4k\]: q19?
fh63 [2k\]: now its far smaller
]
;W[om]WL[949.266]
;B[qk]BL[40]OB[5]C[wurfmaul [2d\]: q19 r19
bitzi [-\]: q19 not working
]
;W[ri]WL[923.783]C[Xylol [4k\]: ah can connect
Pikadonk [1d\]: c5
lktm [5k\]: ey what?
Pikadonk [1d\]: works?
]
;B[qg]BL[40]OB[5]C[Xylol [4k\]: no q19 does not work
akbnm: wich good?
leachy [2k\]: heh big mistake there
flobby [-\]: r13 nice
Crusoe [3k\]: R13 cool, didnt see this one
wurfmaul [2d\]: I think c5 b5
leachy [2k\]: neither did zen
klausP [?\]: I have a feeling, FJ is trying to much tricky stuff
]
;W[pj]WL[890.692]C[akbnm: b57
Xylol [4k\]: klaus it is just endgame tesuji
]
;B[pf]BL[40]OB[5]C[klausP [?\]: instead of playing big moves
lktm [5k\]: here we go
awesome [3k\]: this was great
eleven21: b's flower ko
klausP [?\]: why great?
klausP [?\]: now w S13
]
;W[pg]WL[860.947]C[awesome [3k\]: free ko?
]
;B[os]BL[40]OB[5]C[flobby [-\]: not many pts tho
tom26 [9k\]: picnic time for fj...
flobby [-\]: if b can even gain any at all
ofbusy [-\]: it gives w a few points on first line if w simply s13 so its not much of a gain
akbnm: w 50
richilue [5k\]: b didnt need the ko to win
akbnm: b good?
akbnm: alittle
]
;W[qc]WL[826.5]
;B[pb]BL[40]OB[5]C[akbnm: yose game
mohel [-\]: zen says no
akbnm: hm
klausP [?\]: zen just preparing to sac Q15
]
;W[ns]WL[795.03]C[akbnm: g18 and l6 big
]
;B[pf]BL[40]OB[5]C[klausP [?\]: S13 now
saxo [2d\]: this ko is really big
Xylol [4k\]: l6 not that big
]
;W[rh]WL[759.383]C[klausP [?\]: or this, its the same
]
;B[md]BL[40]OB[5]
;W[me]WL[757.416]
;B[oe]BL[40]OB[5]C[Teluer [6k?\]: no it's not
klausP [?\]: so b lost points in the ko
awesome [3k\]: alright
klausP [?\]: Q1 now?
]
;W[ne]WL[735.766]
;B[rg]BL[40]OB[5]C[bluetable [-\]: too greedy
]
;W[sg]WL[735.005]
;B[sk]BL[40]OB[5]C[klausP [?\]: seems sente
Crusoe [3k\]: G18 looks big
klausP [?\]: g18 6 points
myushkin [4k\]: l7?
]
;W[rj]WL[702.38]
;B[ps]BL[40]OB[5]C[KlausB [?\]: Nice Sente ...
gogonuts [3d\]: fighting with bots over the last half point is like fighting a dog over a bone
gghideki [?\]: g18 was bigger than q1
]
;W[op]WL[671.217]C[tom26 [9k\]: clever
Xylol [4k\]: gogonuts, chilling gets the last point
bitzi [-\]: why would you fight over a bone?
klausP [?\]: q1 was sente
]
;B[gb]BL[40]OB[5]C[klausP [?\]: so b gets both
gghideki [?\]: i see, thx
theolddan [2d\]: seems a budhist is close to you gogo
KlausB [?\]: ok, that's it ...
]
;W[hb]WL[642.767]
;B[fa]BL[40]OB[5]C[gogonuts [3d\]: its really so much better to have the bot go bonkers because its behind
tom26 [9k\]: So we should be expecting Zen T1 any second?
lktm [5k\]: zen resign when
]
;W[sj]WL[608.545]
;B[sl]BL[40]OB[5]C[KlausB [?\]: It's difficult to see Zen win now, maybe FJ has a heartattack (God forbid ...)
snowman [-\]: T1, T2 or T3?
akbnm: hmmm
klausP [?\]: t10 realy?
klausP [?\]: not throw in?
saxo [2d\]: t8 was better...
saxo [2d\]: for w
klausP [?\]: thought so too
gogonuts [3d\]: yeah that was generous
]
;W[fr]WL[571.533]C[eleven21: i didn't think n4 was nice. but now i realze it was a nice move
lktm [5k\]: lol
]
;B[er]BL[40]OB[5]C[klausP [?\]: ah
gogonuts [3d\]: congrats fj :-)
sh5kv [2d\]: win rate must be low now
akbnm: l6...
klausP [?\]: f2 looks good for b
gghideki [?\]: will resign soon, I guess
theolddan [2d\]: fj gets the bone
awesome [3k\]: lol
Xylol [4k\]: thx gghideki for hosting
snowmen [2d\]: Zen lost
mohel [-\]: what's zen's winrate now
akbnm: b good ja
]
;W[ad]WL[534.257]C[lktm [5k\]: lol what rubbish
rsun [-\]: how did this happen, hideki?
Fabbo [5k\]: does C5 do something?
]
;B[af]BL[40]OB[5]C[Xylol [4k\]: btw it would be great to see zen rank if only playing even.
gogonuts [3d\]: this version keeps getting good positions and losing them
Winnetou [?\]: These move look like resihning
flobby [-\]: ko threat fabbo
Fabbo [5k\]: ty
Crusoe [3k\]: maybe zen hopes for a mc
snowmen [2d\]: Zen in crazy mode
gghideki [?\]: yose is difficult for MC bots
theolddan [2d\]: bot doesnt like to leave ko threats before resigning
lktm [5k\]: i thought endgame was solved
]
;W[ro]WL[497.117]C[Teluer [6k?\]: c5 b5
Crusoe [3k\]: MC bots = missclick bots?
]
;B[rp]BL[40]OB[5]C[Fabbo [5k\]: monte carlo
Xylol [4k\]: lktm, easy endgame is solved :-P
gogonuts [3d\]: ironically, its difficult for bot when situations actually are independant
gghideki [?\]: haha
theolddan [2d\]: importance sampling switched off now
eleven21: their miscclicks are better than you and me ;)
lktm [5k\]: gg
akbnm: gg
gogonuts [3d\]: phew
Xylol [4k\]: gg fj
Amenide [6k\]: glückwunsch
tom26 [9k\]: gg
Ahamay [?\]: sauber
fj [6d\]: thanks
snowman [-\]: gg fj
klausP [?\]: congrats
KlausB [?\]: Congrats, FJ.
gogonuts [3d\]: congrats
Winnetou [?\]: Congrats!
Fabbo [5k\]: grats
awesome [3k\]: good job fj
ofbusy [-\]: gg 
GoKlaus [?\]: great, Glückwunsch!
keiler [?\]: Gratulation FJ!
Amenophis [5k?\]: congrats fj
gghideki [?\]: thanks
atman [?\]: Glückwunsch!
klausP [?\]: guter Kampf
tom26 [9k\]: we live to fight another day
eleven21: thx
gogonuts [3d\]: ich dachte zen schaukelt das
MooDoGo [4k\]: gratz
Javaness [2d\]: please don't cry Zen19 , we still love you !
snowman [-\]: no drones at the sky tonight
Amenophis [5k?\]: thx to both players
atman [?\]: Another victory against our soon to be machine overlords!
tom26 [9k\]: cheers all
gogonuts [3d\]: aber fj besser ab spätem mittelspiel
bitzi [-\]: skynet has been delayed again
GoldenBear [1d\]: congratulations to FJ!
awesome [3k\]: they will remember this...
kmr [1d\]: gg
GoKlaus [?\]: ich glaube, FJ's Strategie war, genau das Zen "denken" zu lassen :)
gogonuts [3d\]: harte arbeit+
gogonuts [3d\]: lol
gogonuts [3d\]: angefüttert
matemato [3k\]: well played
GoKlaus [?\]: so hat er eine Partie gegen Crazy Stones gewonnen
GoKlaus [?\]: der konnte eine Stellung nicht bewerten
GoldenBear [1d\]: Next game will be in exactly one week, Saturday, October 24 th, 2 pm CEST
GoKlaus [?\]: sah sich häufig vorn
fj [6d\]: the first game I liked better somehow
gogonuts [3d\]: this did look unhappier
Crusoe [3k\]: a win is a win is a win
fj [6d\]: but this game I like the result better ^^
gogonuts [3d\]: but winning count too :-)
GoKlaus [?\]: *g
GoKlaus [?\]: die Wetten standen lange Zeit gegen Dich, fj
GoldenBear [1d\]: Thanks for watching. Visit us at go.codecentric.de
mohel [-\]: Always letting Zen get that delicious framework
gogonuts [3d\]: hard to make conclusions for proper strategy against zen
fj [6d\]: wie hoch ist mein Anteil? ;-)
gogonuts [3d\]: lol
GoKlaus [?\]: hihi
leachy [2k\]: nicely played ;)
fj [6d\]: erst mal die Quote pimpen und dann zuschlagen
gogonuts [3d\]: fj der alte zocker - ersmal die stellung mürbe machen um die quoten hochzutreiben
])